Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

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Omission can become a lie...

Post  News Hawk on Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:46 pm

sumrluvr wrote:
News Hawk wrote:
sumrluvr wrote:Again this law was started by a group as a response to a tragic accident with no intention of improving the lake or safety.
How many fatal collisions?
The "ONE" that started this entire agenda was the Littlefield/Hartman accident.
How many fatalities are you omitting?

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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  WHL on Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:47 pm

And how fast was he going?
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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  News Hawk on Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:37 pm

WHL wrote:And how fast was he going?
According to the Webmaster at FATP, the questioning of the hit-and-run suspect involved that very question.

The suspect—later, having hidden his boat—stated, "3,000-RPM", which translated into the relatively low speed of 31-MPH, according to the NHMP officer.

Is there a dumber manner for an officer to conduct a criminal investigation?

No
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Littlefield's speed keeps creeping up

Post  obervantone on Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:07 pm

WHL below is part of the appeal argument filed the case.  My observation regarding News Hawk's claim of the speed of the Littlefield boat is that SL supporters like himself are attempting to continue to link speed with this tragic drunken accident.

Speed limit advocates set the arbitrary speed for the lake at 45/25 after the conviction of Littlefield in part, I believe, because of the court testimony that Littlefield's boat was traveling apx 28mph, it could have been more, it could have been less.  It would be hard to for them to argue that speed was involved if the Littlefield boat was traveling slower than the limit that they themselves proposed.  

Subsequently the night time speed limit has been raised by the legislature to 30mph, so now News Hawk is putting the speed of the Littlefield boat at 31.  Again, it is hard to argue that it was speed related if the speed was below the limit that was later set by law.

This is where Negligent Operation and Reasonable and Prudent come into play, but SL supporters don't want to hear that.

Regardless, according to court documents Littlefield was traveling apx. 28mph when he ran down the Hartman boat killing John Hartman.

STATE v. LITTLEFIELDNo. 2003-627.


152 N.H. 331 (2005)


THE STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE
v.
DANIEL J. LITTLEFIELD.


Supreme Court of New Hampshire.

Argued: October 13, 2004.

Opinion Issued: June 16, 2005.


Kelly A. Ayotte, attorney general (Susan P. McGinnis, assistant attorney general, on the brief and orally), for the State.

Sisti Law Offices, of Chichester (Jonathan Cohen on the brief, and Mark L. Sisti orally), for the defendant.


BRODERICK, C.J.

The defendant, Daniel J. Littlefield, appeals his conviction for negligent homicide, see RSA 630:3 (Supp. 2004), following a jury trial in the Superior Court (Smukler, J.). We affirm.

The defendant's conviction stemmed from his operation of his father's thirty-six foot Baja performance boat on Lake Winnipesaukee during the night of August 11, 2002. The night was dark, clear and moonless, with light boat traffic, smooth water, and good visibility. At a speed of approximately twenty-eight miles per hour, the bow of the defendant's boat collided with the stern of a twenty-foot Wellcraft motorboat and then the length of the larger boat rode over the smaller boat. Both boats had departed from the Meredith public docks and headed into Meredith Bay. The collision occurred at approximately 9:30 p.m. and resulted in the death of John Hartman, the owner of the smaller boat.

The grand jury returned two indictments against the defendant, alleging alternative theories of negligent homicide. The first indictment (#03-S-006) alleged that he negligently caused the death of another by failing to keep a proper lookout while operating a boat, a class B felony. The second indictment (#03-S-007) alleged that he negligently caused the death of another by being under the influence of intoxicating liquor while operating a boat, a class A felony. The defendant moved unsuccessfully to have the indictments dismissed. At the conclusion of a nineteen-day jury trial, the defendant was found guilty solely of the class B felony. This appeal followed.

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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  WHL on Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:12 pm

If I have said that once to NH, I have said it twenty times. It is the drinking that has caused all these accidents not the speed.
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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  News Hawk on Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:10 pm

WHL wrote:If I have said that once to NH, I have said it twenty times.  It is the drinking that has caused all these accidents not the speed.  
1) But not drunk enough to forget his exact speed...and

2) not drunk enough to hide his boat—and himself.

3) There were comments made after news stories of hanky-panky behind the wheel. He wasn't alone.

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How about Lake George

Post  Amy B on Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:49 pm

Let's not forget that accidents were just one of many facets of why we needed a sl and I need not go into them again. We were looking into buying a boat on Lake George recently and were impressed by the responses as to how well it is working. And it is strictly enforced. I'm not aware, correct me if I'm wrong, of any particular accident there that was a catalyst that lake's sl. And apparently their economy didn't tank either (try getting a room for the weekend there!). I bring this up again because over and over we hear from the anti sl crowd that vengeance for the Littlefield accident was behind our sl. Or that even though the accidents involved performance boats it doesn't count because alcohol was involved. In any case, one could debate this all day and we still won't agree. And most people come to the lake for peaceful recreation and certainly many observed that loud obnoxious boats, for a variety of reasons, were marginalizing families on the lake. My neighbor did not enjoy fishing with his son and having these boats scream by at 100 MPH with a ear splitting roar. We don't see this anymore. Now debate it all you want, throw in a few "live free or dies", deny that lake's region and state polls showed a majority agreed with the sl, say that 78% of our House was bullied or misinformed, say that the huge majority of sign ins at the state house in favor of the SL was because SL opponents have jobs and couldn't come. We've heard it all.
  My initial post on this thread a couple of day's ago was to report that sl supporters were singled out to be "punished" for their support of the sl. That's immature and perhaps typifies the type of behavior that has given these boats and boaters such a bad reputation. People have little tolerance for this behavior and others that may go hand in hand with it. I'm glad some of these boaters no longer want to return. Good riddance. The fact that alcohol was involved in the crashes involving these boats and boaters did not help either. You've got an uphill battle to fight here. Good luck.
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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  Outerlimits on Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:52 pm

Do you really believe the “scoff-laws” give a rat’s backside about your speed limit laws?

Do you think they have held back on the throttle or declined to have one more for the road?

NH’s videos are pretty good evidence that they are still out there.  You are fooling yourself and other to say the lake is safer today than it was pre-speed limit.  All the speed limit did was to keep the honest people, honest.
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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  News Hawk on Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:48 pm

Outerlimits wrote:"...NH’s videos are pretty good evidence that they are still out there..."
Scofflaws?

Fifteen of 'em in the normally skier-friendly Winter Harbor—but some couldn't keep up with the real perps, and just may have been trying to stay —as you say—"honest".

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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  Achigan on Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:54 pm

Man is this topic getting old.
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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  WHL on Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:57 pm

Just like all laws, Outer. They keep honest people honest.
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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  News Hawk on Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:19 pm

Amy B wrote:"...I'm not aware, correct me if I'm wrong, of any particular accident there that was a catalyst that lake's sl..."
One gal, drunk drunken  ran her Cobalt into a large area of shallow rocks in the north end of Lake George. Her Cobalt was estimated traveling at 60-MPH. (Which my Cobalt-owning (small-engine) neighbor says is a "good" speed for a Cobalt "with the big engine").

I predict here—as I predicted at FATP—that the next Winnipesaukee fatality will be with a Cobalt .

Winter Harbor has too great a share of reckless Cobalts.

You watch.

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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  obervantone on Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:57 pm

Amy B:
we hear from the anti sl crowd that vengeance for the Littlefield accident was behind our sl. Or that even though the accidents involved performance boats it doesn't count because alcohol was involved.
Yes I think it is a correct statement to say that the SL was put into place because a drunk killed a man known to the key players, but the SL advocates could not go after the establishement that was responsible for serving the man until he was staggering drunk and forgot to untie his boat before leaving the docks (the testimony of an off-duty Chief of Police from another town who witnessed the event but did nothing to stop it nor did he call police or the Marine Patrol to warn them).  The advocates could not go after the establishments owner because a financial partner in some of the businesses he was involved in became a major contributor to the SL movement, thus diverting attention away from any responsibility that the establisment should have bourne.

As you can see from a post from the AMC to its members, the death of Mr Hartman was a key point in the argument for a speed limit. (Bold and italics THEIRS).

AMC post from 2005
Problems Addressed by this Bill—Lake Winnipesaukee and Safety
--High speed boaters are infringing on our rights to use and enjoy the Lake.
-- Due to these high speed boaters, the Lake is often dangerous to navigate, totally
unenjoyable, and downright terrifying to leisure boaters, sailors, canoers, kayakers, rowers,
fishermen and waterskiers.
--Reaction time is significantly shorter when boating defensively vis-à-vis these high speed
boats, yielding low margins for error and very stressful lake outings.
--Lake Winnipesaukee is “an accident waiting to happen—again.” The Littlefield collision
in Meredith causing a fatality is an example of what can and is happening. Do we want to
wait for another tragedy to stop this peril on the Lake?
The NH Marine Patrol testified a number of times that speed is not and has never been a problem on Lake Winnipesaukee, but the money funneled to the effort to buy lobbyists ruled the day.  The speed limit is the law and needs to be followed, but revisionist history of how the law came to be on the books will not be allowed.

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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  News Hawk on Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:58 am

obervantone wrote:
Amy B:
we hear from the anti sl crowd that vengeance for the Littlefield accident was behind our sl. Or that even though the accidents involved performance boats it doesn't count because alcohol was involved.
Yes I think it is a correct statement to say that the SL was put into place because a drunk killed a man known to the key players..."
So you think the subsequent manslaughter case by the chief advocate of unlimited Lake Winnipesaukee speeds—the President of a "safe" New Hampshire boaters club—had no bearing on the Governor's signing of the Speed-Limits bill into law?

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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  WHL on Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:38 am

Isn't it strange that lobbyists have power over the MP??!!
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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  Amy B on Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:28 am

obervantone wrote:The NH Marine Patrol testified a number of times that speed is not and has never been a problem on Lake Winnipesaukee, but the money funneled to the effort to buy lobbyists ruled the day.  The speed limit is the law and needs to be followed, but revisionist history of how the law came to be on the books will not be allowed.
Yes, I agree revisionist history will not be allowed. Just like the enlisted man doesn't get to decide which wars to fight, the MP is beholden to the rule of law and the will of the people. In part the MP's response was fueled by the culture of speed espoused by the late Dave Barrett. The people spoke. Polls, both statewide and in the lake's region, showed people supported the sl. Each time the House voted on the issue, it was with a higher margin of support. The MP was tone deaf as to the many other reasons why this majority favored a sl.

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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  WHL on Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:34 am

You know I don't think that many people really do support the speed limit. I think most don't care one way or the other.
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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  sumrluvr on Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:40 am

Shady deals, Lobbyists, intimidation and a false information campaign did the house and other legislature in.

The so call scientific poll done by the Magellan group was conducted in early spring to "residents" only. Not Boaters. Not those who pay the overwhelmingly majority of taxes of the lakes region, not those who summer there and have as much right to the use of the lake as those there in the winter. I even spoke to the head of the Magellan group and he said they could conduct another poll to make sure the results were in favor of removal of the SL. It all depended on the sample that the poll was focused on. So stop with the %'s.

Why don't we discuss the testimony given by Sandy Helve stating that 5000 signatures on the petition she carries around and says they were did not support a compromise. Funny that compromise didn't occur until 4 weeks prior to the House Committee hearing.. But it was the same petition??? strange.

How about we talk about the multiple emails that were used over and over again. After a search of the house database it showed the same emails being sent from 6 years ago.

How about the list of businesses that "supported" the speed limit that the Winnfabs submitted. But when contacted they said they were unaware they were listed and some were even out of business?

These are some of the tactics used to give a false pretense of support. It was political. It was done in a shady political way. It is how bad laws get passed. The Winnfabs played the game right to get their way but we won't let you rewrite history. We won't forget how it was accomplished and someday people will realize the error in their ways.

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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  sumrluvr on Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:41 am

WHL wrote:You know I don't think that many people really do support the speed limit. I think most don't care one way or the other.  
This is true WHL... Most don't care because it doesn't affect them one way or the other. A vocal "minority" spoke up to give the impression of being the majority. It really was a shame.

This was proven in the little period of time when the "study" was held. Average speed 23 mph. Only one boat clocked at 62 of over 2500 boats clocked. Hence no need for a law to fix a nonexistent problem. But these are facts and %'s swept under the carpet and what the supporters want history to forget.

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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  Amy B on Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:11 am

These poll results show rather unequivocally how the real owners of the lake feel.

Sumr, all of the immature foot stomping just seems like what one would observe from a kid who always got his way...""They cheated, it's not fair, they interrupted the study, they didn't poll boaters, the poll had leading questions". You refute overwhelming evidence such as polls, sign ins, a 78% vote by a very conservative House supporting sl's. And BTW, if they polled boaters, you would whine "they should only be polling boaters who can go faster than 45 MPH....other power boaters don't know a thing about performance boating". Well guess what? Life isn't fair. Don't be such a sore loser. It is immature annd unbecoming to you and your cause.


American Research Group, Inc.
The New Hampshire Poll

June 30, 2005
Quarterly Survey – June 2005

The following results are based on 600 completed telephone interviews among a statewide random sample of adults in New Hampshire. Of the 600 interviews, 534 interviews were among registered voters (162 Republicans, 138 Democrats, and 234 undeclared voters). The interviews were conducted June 27 through 29, 2005.

The theoretical margin of error for the total sample of 600 is plus or minus 4 percentage points, 95% of the time, on questions where opinion is evenly split. The theoretical margin of error for the sample of 534 registered voters is plus or minus 4.2 percentage points, 95% of the time, on questions where opinion is evenly split.

Question wording and responses:

Do you favor or oppose a law that would impose speed limits for boats on large lakes in New Hampshire?

Boat Speed Limits
Favor
Oppose
Undecided


All adults
64%
22%
14%


Voters 66% 22% 12%

Republicans
68%
29%
3%

Democrats
83%
8%
9%

Undeclared
54%
26%
20%


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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  sumrluvr on Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:15 am

I am posting what happened.

Also please post the compromise %.

How is you think the "real owners" of the lake? Are you saying those who own property and pay as much if not more taxes are not the real owners?

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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  Amy B on Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:58 am

sumrluvr wrote:I am posting what happened.

Also please post the compromise %.

How is you think the "real owners" of the lake? Are you saying those who own property and pay as much if not more taxes are not the real owners?

Good God he did it again! We polled the wrong people! Of course! Yes, maybe we should only poll lakefront property owners who own speedboats...they're the ones who know. And would swimmers, kayakers, and people who just sit on their docks be counted? Of course not...they would be prejudiced and have an agenda. Should we only poll heroin users regarding our country's drug laws? I swear if we gave you a million dollars you would complain that it was in the wrong denomination. Get real...you lost because you annoyed too many people for too long.
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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  sumrluvr on Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:13 am

Way to go off the handle..

I am simply saying that when the poll was done it was not during the tourist season or was it conducted by boaters who actually use the lake. A better sampling would have been to NH Boat Registrations. (suggested by the owner of the Magellan group)

By conducting it to only residents (registered voters) is leaving out a large significant block of people who live in the lakes region only part time. This does not mean necessarily on the lake front. But I also would be interested in a poll that did only go after lake front owners. These people have a front row seat to the actual issues on the lake and more than likely the ones who use it the most.

We can go back and forth all day on this but it is safe to make an assumption that the polling is skewed (even suggesting by the pollster)


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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  Amy B on Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:14 am

sumrluvr wrote:Shady deals, Lobbyists, intimidation and a false information campaign did the house and other legislature in.

Interesting interpretation. And regarding honesty in polling and drumming up support, lets talk of your ploy to get people from all over the country and world via the speed boating web sites to sign your petetion against speed limits, after all "your lake may be next". And even on some automobile sites. Amazing. Yet it was so terrible, collecting signatures in Nashua in favor of a sl..."what do Nashua people know about Winnipesaukee". Then when the majority of lake's region legislators indicate they will support a sl you have your dad write an op ed about how the lake belongs to everyone in NH and it's opening a Pandora's box by letting lake's region people have a bigger voice in the management of the lake.

You come across as if you're an innocent little cub scout. There's plenty of dirt on your hands. What a hypocrite.

"You've lost all credibility on this forum".
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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

Post  sumrluvr on Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:27 am

Is there any point on the issue you would like to make or are your arguments so low that all you can do is try to discredit me and the group.

Look at the issue at hand.

Are you saying that lake front owners do not have the same rights as residents? Doesn't their voices count? How about transient boaters that use the lake and pay equal amounts and more for a registration?

Our attempt to ask those on boating forums was to solicit actual "boaters" who have a knowledge of boating and marine activities. Why not get those people who are educating in the activity in which you are trying to restrict.

And yes their lake could be next. How many times do people refer to Lake George?

Address the issue and the points made above please:

A. Multiple emails used over and over again.
B. A petition that was collected over the years but is continued to be presented as new.
C. Threats made to legislators and their businesses if they support the removal or a compromise
D. A list of businesses that were submitted as those who support the SL but did not give their consent, know they were on the list, or were even out of business.
E. Address the "study" requested by the winnfabs where the average speed was only 23mph. Only one boat at 62mph. But concluded that it was needed?
F. How can you request to sunset the study 14 days into it citing that "it is working great" when the MP did not even have data from it yet?
G. Why did the Winnfabs not support the amendment to extend the study so that the "sunset" clause would not be an issue? Why was this data feared?

These are tangible un-refuted examples of what the SL supporters and Winnfabs used.

Again bad politics. But good for you it worked.

We just don't want you re-writing history to make it seem like the SL was the golden answer and the Winnfabs were a gift to the Lakes Region... Actually the complete opposite.


Last edited by sumrluvr on Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Labor Day Weekend on the Lake...

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