Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  WHL on Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:19 pm

You seem to know how to search the internet when you want to, NP.  Why, when we make a statement do you always tell us to find you a link?  From now on, I will let you find your own links.
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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Pigeon on Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:34 pm

Shocked Oh nooooo....does this mean I'll have to do my own thinking?? Laughing 

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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  Outerlimits on Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:40 pm

 Rolling Eyes No one is debating the fact the original SOFA was for withdrawal by the end of 2011. Well except for you two.

You are both distorting reality by completely disregarding the fact that residual forces would need to be left in Iraq and that would require a NEW Status of Forces Agreement.

The U.S. wanted to leave a residual force in Iraq.

The Iraqis wanted the U.S. to leave a residual force in Iraq.

The DOD, State Department, CIA, NSA, Bush, Hillary and Obama all stated a residual force would be needed in Iraq and that would require a NEW Status of Forces Agreement to leave a residual force in Iraq.

Obama promised to defend U.S. interests in Iraq but failed to negotiate a Status of Forces Agreement.

Simply citing the original SOFA and stating nonsense like “What part of all US forces have to be out by Dec, 2011 is ambiguous?” show a complete lack of knowledge and/or purposeful deception.

Of course the two of you cannot accept an Obama failure so you both shake your heads really hard.  Mad  Mad  Mad  Mad 

And poof…just like that…history and facts just disappear.

Obama didn’t fail. Boooooooooosh is responsible for pulling all the troops out on Iraq.

What Status of Forces Agreement?

Residual forces?

What on earth are you talking about?

It’s impossible to take either one of you seriously. Next you will be saying the events in Iraq caught us all by surprise.
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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Pigeon on Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:46 pm

Once again....

American-led Coalition forces participating in the 2003 invasion of Iraq were initially subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of their parent states. After the handover of sovereign power to an Iraqi administration, Coalition forces in Iraq were nominally subject to Iraqi jurisdiction, and operated without any Status of Forces Agreement.[17] In theory, Iraqi Courts had the right to try Coalition forces for any alleged offenses, though this right was never exercised.[citation needed]

In an interview January 24, 2008, US Defense Secretary Robert Gates indicated that work on a SOFA had barely been started. [18] On June 13, 2008, Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said that negotiations with the United States on a long-term security pact were deadlocked because of concern the deal infringes Iraqi sovereignty. "We have reached an impasse because when we opened these negotiations we did not realize that the U.S. demands would so deeply affect Iraqi sovereignty and this is something we can never accept", he said in Amman, Jordan. "We cannot allow U..S forces to have the right to jail Iraqis or assume, alone, the responsibility of fighting against terrorism", Maliki told Jordanian newspaper editors, according to a journalist present at the meeting.[19]

On July 1, 2008, Zebari said he briefed members of the Iraqi Parliament that U.S. contractors would no longer have immunity from Iraqi prosecution under negotiated terms of the long-term security pact. U.S. State Department officials could not be immediately reached for comment, but Iraqi member of parliament Mahmoud Othman said he attended the meeting and that Iraqi representatives were very pleased with the immunity agreement.[20]

On July 8, 2008, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani rejected the proposed agreement on the basis that it violates Iraqi sovereignty, following a meeting with Iraq National Security Advisor Mowaffak al-Rubaie.[21] Rubaie, clarifying remarks by Maliki on July 7 that Iraq would accept a memorandum of understanding in lieu of a SOFA, stated "We will not accept any memorandum of understanding if it does not give a specific date for a complete withdrawal of foreign troops".[22] Deputy speaker Khaled al-Attiyah also said on July 8 that the Iraqi parliament would insist on vetting any agreement with the United States and would likely veto the agreement if American troops were immune from Iraqi law: "Without doubt, if the two sides reach an agreement, this is between two countries, and according to the Iraqi constitution a national agreement must be agreed by parliament by a majority of two thirds".[23]

On October 16, 2008, after several more months of negotiations, U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice briefed senior U.S. lawmakers on the draft SOFA, and Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki prepared to circulate it with Iraq's Political National Security Council before going on to the Council of Ministers and the Iraqi parliament. Despite a compromise on the issue of jurisdiction over off-duty U.S. troops who commit crimes under Iraqi law, issues related to the timeline for U.S. withdrawal and Iraqi insistence on "absolute sovereignty" remained.[24]
Approval process

On 16 November, Iraq's Cabinet approved the agreements; on 27 November, the Iraqi Parliament ratified them; on December 4, Iraq's presidential council approved the security pacts

October 2011 decision to withdraw all American forces

As reported on Saturday, October 15, 2011, the Obama Administration proceeded with the plan to withdraw American forces from Iraq (barring some last-minute move in the Iraqi parliament when they returned from a break in late November 2011 shortly before the end-of-the-year withdrawal date) because of concerns that they would not have be given immunity from Iraqi courts, a concern for American commanders in the field who also had to worry about the Sadrist response should troops stay and the general state of Iraq's readiness for transfer of power.

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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Buzzard on Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:55 pm

Thank you for the informational response, NP. Pretty soon they'll be telling us that it wasn't Bush who ordered the invasion of Iraq. The debacle has to be pinned on Obama. That's a shame.

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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Buzzard on Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:22 pm


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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  Outerlimits on Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:34 pm

Well at least you have now acknowledged there was an attempt for a New Status of Forces Agreement.

– That is progress. Very Happy 

And in a roundabout way…you acknowledged Obama could not come to an agreement with Maliki

- a little more progress.  Very Happy  Of course it was not Obama’s fault he could not come to terms with the Iraqi leader.

Now how could George W. Bush negotiate this very same thing when Obama could not?

Obama held all the cards and all the money. The lack of exemption was merely a negotiating position to shake more money and higher troop levels out of the US. Obama did not put Maliki’s feet to the fire and get the agreement, he simply ended the negotiations.

A skilled and determined negotiator would have reached a mutually agreeable position.

Obama instead took the political advantage and appealed to his base by claiming he ended the war and brought all of our troops home. He sold out Iraq, its people, and the sacrifices of the US military and their families for his personal political gain.
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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Pigeon on Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:35 pm

News Buzzard wrote:Thank you for the informational response, NP. Pretty soon they'll be telling us that it wasn't Bush who ordered the invasion of Iraq. The debacle has to be pinned on Obama. That's a shame.

The sad part is that IF Obama had violated the agreement and left residual troops behind, the troops would have been in danger of being arrested & tried for trumped up crimes in an Iraqi court....now that would've really given them a "Benghazi" moment!!

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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Pigeon on Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:37 pm

Outerlimits wrote:Well at least you have now acknowledged there was an attempt for a New Status of Forces Agreement.

 – That is progress. Very Happy 

And in a roundabout way…you acknowledged Obama could not come to an agreement with Maliki

- a little more progress.  Very Happy  Of course it was not Obama’s fault he could not come to terms with the Iraqi leader.

Now how could George W. Bush negotiate this very same thing when Obama could not?

Obama held all the cards and all the money. The lack of exemption was merely a negotiating position to shake more money and higher troop levels out of the US.  Obama did not put Maliki’s feet to the fire and get the agreement, he simply ended the negotiations.

A skilled and determined negotiator would have reached a mutually agreeable position.

Obama instead took the political advantage and appealed to his base by claiming he ended the war and brought all of our troops home.  He sold out Iraq, its people, and the sacrifices of the US military and their families for his personal political gain.  

 Laughing  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing ...... Rolling Eyes Nice try!

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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Pigeon on Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:39 pm


From your article...
The only error Obama made in ending the U.S. military role in Iraq was not moving fast enough to disengage from Bush's nation-building fantasies. Where is the evidence that it ever works, particularly in the Mideast? The United States has backed the military ruling class in Egypt for more than three decades, and the instant the much-hoped-for transition to democracy appeared, those same corrupt generals scurried for safety to the embrace of oil drenched Saudi religious fanatics. Libya's Moammar Gadhafi is now gone, only to be replaced by militants given to an even harsher brand of oppression. Yet a bipartisan consensus of Washington politicians still believes that the overthrow of the secular leader of Syria is somehow consistent with the proclaimed goals of the war on terrorism.

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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Buzzard on Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:56 pm

Dick Cheney has the audacity to come out and bash Obama:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2014/06/18/maybe-listening-to-dick-cheney-on-iraq-isnt-a-good-idea/?hpid=z2

"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency."         Dick Cheney-2005      Evil or Very Mad

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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Pigeon on Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:18 pm

It's a well known fact that people who suffer heart disease often run the risk of early dementia....

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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Hawk on Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:37 pm

News Buzzard wrote:"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency."         Dick Cheney-2005      Evil or Very Mad

scratch

How could Cheney have known that 2000 Westerners from the US, Britain and Australia would join in this latest ISIS drive through Iraq?

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/hundreds-westerners-join-middle-east-jihadists-24241155?tab=9482930§ion=1206853&playlist=1363340

Question


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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Hawk on Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:17 pm

News Buzzard wrote:
Outerlimits wrote:Invading Iraq was a massive mistake based on bad information...........When Bush left office, Iraq was stable and the war was won.

Invading Iraq was a massive mistake and the Congress voted on that bad information. The Commander In Chief gives the final order to invade and that was Bush. Iraq was never stable after our invasion. The invasion was a complete disaster because we only had a fraction of the troops necessary and we created a vacuum after Hussein was deposed. Reports are that Maliki is not much more than a thug and that's why Iraq is in the shape it's in today, so why did we replace a thug with a thug? Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11, he wanted no part of al Qaeda and he had no weapons of mass destruction, so taking him out was a huge mistake !

The result in Afghanistan is not going to come out any better, and that was also Bush's fault.

You can't blame Obama for any of this. He was dealt a deck of cards that he couldn't do much with. Bush presided over 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq and the recession and Bush owns all of it.

The Iraqi judge who sentenced Saddam to die was just killed by ISIS.

So you agree with ISIS?

 Shocked 


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More Than One BILLION People Mad at the USA...

Post  News Hawk on Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:21 pm

News Hawk wrote:
News Buzzard wrote:Love the illustrations, News Pigeon. News Hawk is an idiot !
This idiot has posted a news story into the "World News" forum. There's yet to be a response that comes close to being "World News".

The various TEA parties hopefully will open the eyes of those who unknowingly/unwittingly use American Communist Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" to attempt ridicule in their quest to destroy the US from inside.

You won't want to view this violent video expressing Democrat "thought" after I've corrected the URL. It's a "recruitment" video for ISIS, to whom Obama has given the green light.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKELtjoNrP

The video begins with a shot of Muslim Militants burning their passports from various countries. It continues with filming the results of planted IEDs blowing up many of Iraq's HumVees. Now I understand how our military had suffered so many injuries.

 Sad 

Is this beginning of The Muslim Caliphate?

 pale 

THAT was yesterday's news...In the news today...



"A powerful jihadist group known for its ruthless tactics and systemic abuses in the Syrian and Iraqi conflicts announced Sunday the establishment of a "caliphate," or Islamist state.

In an audio recording distributed online, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) declared its chief Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi "the caliph" and "leader for Muslims everywhere."

The jihadists said they would impose their caliphate on areas they have conquered in Syria and Iraq.

"The Shura (council) of the Islamic State met and discussed this issue (of the caliphate)... The Islamic State decided to establish an Islamic caliphate and to designate a caliph for the state of the Muslims," said ISIL spokesman Abu Mohammad al-Adnani.

"The jihadist cleric Baghdadi was designated the caliph of the Muslims," said Adnani, adding that the caliphate will extend "from Aleppo (in northern Syria) to Diyala" in Iraq.

Baghdadi "has accepted this allegiance, and has thus become the leader for Muslims everywhere."

"The words 'Iraq' and 'the Levant' have been removed from the name of the Islamic State in official papers and documents," Adnani said, describing the caliphate as "the dream in all the Muslims' hearts" and "the hope of all jihadists."

Ever since the Prophet Mohammed's death, a caliph was designated "the prince" or emir "of the believers."
—Naharnet

...and they've got more than 2 BILLION DOLLARS to spend right now...

No

Let me remind you, that Obama released the new Caliph from prison.

No

.

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Destroy the Islamic State—NOW!

Post  News Hawk on Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:08 pm

Outerlimits wrote:Invading Iraq was a massive mistake based on bad information.

Your revisionist history makes it sound like Bush made this decision alone. If memory serves there were 2 votes to go to war and it was the Dems who wanted the second vote. The first time there was backlash against the ones who voted against by the people. The second Vote a lot more Dems jumped on board. Bush had many vocal partners on both sides of the aisle including Hillary and Kerry.

But as President of the United States, Bush owns what happens under his watch.

All of it.

Now I am waiting for those on the left to hold Obama to that same standard. Instead of making excuses, and trying to minimize his mistakes just hold him accountable.  The man is a proven liar and yet the left refuses to hold him accountable for it.

What's going on in Iraq "Obama's greatest success," as Biden told us, or isn't it?

When Bush left office, Iraq was stable and the war was won.  ISIS was not taking over Iraqi cities, and murdering and beheading people until Obama screwed it all up for political expediency.

_____________________________________

The Islamic State (IS) is a well-organized entity, almost certainly supported by former Saddamist regime elements whose hand can be seen in the campaign design now unfolding. This group is not a flash in the pan that will go away of its own accord or if we don’t poke at it.

It is not benign. IS is reinforced by Sunni tribal elements from Syria and Iraq, and most alarmingly, is aided by a witch’s brew of foreign fighters from Chechens to Uighurs to Pashtuns, but also including Europeans and Americans. The Caliphate’s Western recruits will be felt in the European and American homelands for years to come regardless of the fate IS and its cause.
http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2014/08/gen-allen-destroy-islamic-state-now/92012/


 Exclamation 

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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Hawk on Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:54 am

Outerlimits wrote:The reality is; by the time Obama took office, the Iraq [war] was won.  Obama then failed to negotiate a status of forces agreement with Iraq and that is why ISIS is cutting through the country as we speak.  

Panetta agrees with you:

Panetta: U.S. In Syria Too Late, Left Iraq Too Soon ISIS seized a third of Iraq that the U.S. secured with ten years of sacrifice.

In an interview for 60 Minutes, Former Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta said ISIS flourished because the U.S. got involved in Syria too late and left Iraq too soon.
CBS60 Minutes

Sad


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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Hawk on Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:23 am


Dem Rep: 40 American ISIS fighters have already returned to the United States


Rep. Tim Bishop, D-N.Y., warned during a recent speech that up to 40 radicalized U.S. citizens who have fought alongside the Islamic State of Iraq and Levant (ISIL or ISIS) have already returned to the United States, where they could pose a terrorist threat. Bishop claims that of the 100 or so Americans who have traveled to the Middle East to join ISIL’s ranks, some 40 have returned and are currently being surveilled by the FBI, according to his remarks, which were filmed and uploaded to YouTube last week.
Like those with US Visas—and the US doesn't know where/who they are—we're out of control of US' security against Terror.

No


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One VERY Competent 5-Star General...

Post  News Hawk on Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:50 am

News Buzzard wrote:Iraq will always be Bush's disaster:



“... Recalling back to Operation Desert Storm, I can't help asking myself: Wouldn't it be great for our armed forces and for America if we could have another commander-in-chief named George Bush with Dick Cheney on his team?”
General Norman Schwarzkopf

Cool


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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Buzzard on Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:14 pm

Bush, the father, was much smarter than his son. He knew enough not to create a vacuum in Iraq which turned out to be his son's disastrous legacy. Iraq will always be Bush's (43) disaster!!

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Re: Even Worse than Osama bin Laden?

Post  News Hawk on Thu May 21, 2015 6:36 pm

News Buzzard wrote:Invading Iraq was a massive mistake and the Congress voted on that bad information.

"It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein wiil continue to increase his capability to wage biological and chemical warfare and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East which, as we know all too well, affects American security."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
Congressional Record – Sen. Hillary Clinton
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2002_record&page=S10288&position=all

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In Doing Nothing, Obama Slights Our Troops' Sacrifice...

Post  News Hawk on Wed May 27, 2015 9:08 am

News Buzzard wrote:Invading Iraq was a massive mistake and the Congress voted on that bad information.

An Iraq War veteran pens a powerful defense of the decision to invade, remove Saddam

The detail hindsight forgets, and the fiction murky memories create...

We’ve been coming back to the Iraq War lately for two reasons. One is that the media keep bringing it up in the form of a knowing-what-we-know-now gotcha question aimed at Republican presidential candidates (although they offer no such question to Hillary Clinton concerning the 2011 withdrawal of all U.S. troops . . . not that she would answer). The other, more pertinent reason, is that ISIS is overrunning Iraq at the moment, taking advantage of the absence of a residual U.S. force and Barack Obama’s refusal to wage a real fight against them.

Conventional wisdom long ago decided that George W. Bush’s invasion of Iraq was a mistake, and that for all his faults, Saddam Hussein’s presence was preferable to what came after - not to mention the price we paid in blood and treasure to remove him. I have remained one of the steadfast defenders of the decision to invade Iraq and take Saddam out, and I discussed that in some detail last week.

But I am just a guy who remembers what was happening at the time and found the post-event revision of history unconvincing. David Patten was there, fought in the war and remembers in much clearer details why we fought, and why the current revisionist narrative is total B.S. Many of the post-invasion decisions the Bush Administration made were mistakes, and resulted in a very difficult four-year post-invasion period that only turned our way with the 2007 surge. Patten doesn’t deny that and neither do I. But anyone who now argues that we would have been better off leaving Saddam in power is forgetting the true nature of his regime and the destabilizing force he represented in the region.
Canada Free Press

Australia may be flying more—and sighting more targets—than the US.

No

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