Baby loons

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Baby loons

Post  WHL on Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:39 am

Supposedly there are 15 baby loons on the lake this year! That must be a record!
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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:14 pm

One might argue that the speed limit on the lake has made a major contribution to the loon revival. We know that the chicks are far more buoyant than their parents and less able to maneuver out of harm's way should a performance boat be "doubling the speed limit". This is a good sign.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  WHL on Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:22 am

Sure!
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Re: Baby loons

Post  News Hawk on Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:54 am

Amy B wrote:One might argue that the speed limit on the lake has made a major contribution to the loon revival. We know that the chicks are far more buoyant than their parents and less able to maneuver out of harm's way should a performance boat be "doubling the speed limit". This is a good sign.
There are no speeders and one chick in Tuftonboro Bay (check old charts of Winnipesaukee for the name).

There are no Loon chicks in "Marriott's Moat"—but lots of Geese!

(And have heard a Loon only twice this season).

 Sad 


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Apparently once you join you are a member in perpetuity

Post  obervantone on Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:26 pm

Since I can not get the administrator to remove me as a member of this website I may participate on a limited basis on the Lake section of the forum.

I noticed with some amusement that Amy B tired to link the speed limit law with the well being of the loon population!   Razz 

I present this quote from the Concord Monitor heading into the July 4th holiday weekend...but don't let facts get in the way of your rants Amy!   lol!

Emily Preston, a wildlife biologist with the state’s Fish and Game Department, said motorboats get a lot of the blame for disturbing the birds, but paddle boats like kayaks and canoes, because they can get closer to the nests, actually can be a greater threat. She urges people to observe loons – and all wildlife – from afar.

“If they are looking at you, you are too close,” she said. 

Then again, what does she know?  She's only a wildlife biologist with the state!   Suspect 

http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/12601843-95/loon-chicks-hatching-on-lakes-boaters-cautioned

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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:03 pm

The article also said:
Boat collisions are the greatest human-related cause of chick mortality and the third-highest cause of adult loon mortality, following lead poisoning or injury from fishing tackle.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your rants.

Hmmm...hard to imagine a loon so slow he couldn't get out of a canoe's way.

And as for your quote "actually can be a greater threat"....can does not necessarily mean does.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  obervantone on Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:43 pm

Emily Preston, a wildlife biologist with the state’s Fish and Game Department, said motorboats get a lot of the blame for disturbing the birds, but paddle boats like kayaks and canoes, because they can get closer to the nests, actually can be a greater threat.

Amy, maybe that makes it easier for you to comprehend.

WHL. lake issues only.

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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:54 pm

And the Loon Preservation Committee says " Collisions from motorboats and ski jets are the second-leading known cause of death of loon chicks, accounting for 22% of collected mortalities for which the cause of death could be determined".

Maybe that makes it easier for you to comprehend.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  obervantone on Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:06 pm

That issue was addressed by a named wildlife biologist in this article when she stated:
motorboats get a lot of the blame for disturbing the birds, but paddle boats like kayaks and canoes, because they can get closer to the nests, actually can be a greater threat.
Breaking it down for you, motorboats get the blame but kayakers and canoeists do much more damage.

One more thought to ponder...since you linked the speed limit law to the resurgence of the loon population...how many motorboats over the years were sited for traveling over 45 MPH within 150 feet of the shore or other locations where loons breed?
I'll give you some time to look that one up.

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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:22 pm

Do you have any hard numbers for said mortality secondary to kayaks etc.? The article does give statistics regarding collisions:"Boat collisions are the greatest human-related cause of chick mortality and the third-highest cause of adult loon mortality".
 As far as citations issued...what is the connection? People going more slowly?? And the last I heard loons don't use a measuring tape to stay within 150 feet of shore.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  News Hawk on Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:31 pm

obervantone wrote:That issue was addressed by a named wildlife biologist in this article when she stated:
motorboats get a lot of the blame for disturbing the birds, but paddle boats like kayaks and canoes, because they can get closer to the nests, actually can be a greater threat.
Breaking it down for you, motorboats get the blame but kayakers and canoeists do much more damage.

One more thought to ponder...since you linked the speed limit law to the resurgence of the loon population...how many motorspeedboats over the years were sited cited for traveling over 45 MPH within 150 feet of the shore or other locations where loons breed?  

I'll give you some time to look that one up.

Speedboats should get the blame. Other than "a good feeling", what is the good in saving chicks from canoes, when the adults come up for air and are crushed by  4½ ton ocean-racers?

Successful breeding in Loons demands a pair of parents. (And among humans).

One dead Loon at breeding season will likely doom the chick(s) to starvation.

No


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Re: Baby loons

Post  obervantone on Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:32 pm

Amy B asked:

As far as citations issued...what is the connection? People going more slowly??

To which I bring to her attention her very first post on this issue...linking the connection
One might argue that the speed limit on the lake has made a major contribution to the loon revival.

Then there is this tidbit from NewsHawk:
Speedboats should get the blame. Other than "a good feeling", what is the good in saving chicks from canoes, when the adults come up for air and are crushed by  4½ ton ocean-racers?


And yet in his very first post on this issue he wrote:
There are no speeders and one chick in Tuftonboro Bay (check old charts of Winnipesaukee for the name).

There are no Loon chicks in "Marriott's Moat"—but lots of Geese!

(And have heard a Loon only twice this season).

My point was A WILDLIFE BIOLOGIST FOR THE NH FISH & GAME DEPARTMENT STATED:
motorboats get a lot of the blame for disturbing the birds, but paddle boats like kayaks and canoes, because they can get closer to the nests, actually can be a greater threat.
Pointing out that while motorboats generally get the blame, kayakers and canoeists are a greater threat! But What does she know? She's only a wildlife biologist!

 Laughing

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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:56 am

Hmmmm....seems a bit odd that with your first post yesterday you mentioned the part about canoes etc. that CAN be a threat (though she didn't say they are) but you conveniently left out "Boat collisions are the greatest human-related cause of chick mortality and the third-highest cause of adult loon mortality, following lead poisoning or injury from fishing tackle".

Did you think that people wouldn't go back and read the article you cited? Your logic is humorous at best. Geez, perhaps you can get one of your buddies in Concord (like Hikel or Boutin) to partner with the Loon Preservation Society and overturn the speed limit Laughing  Maybe the marine biologist will join hands as well Laughing
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Re: Baby loons

Post  WHL on Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:11 am

Please, the speed limit has nothing to do with the loon babies. If a boat runs over a baby at 25 or 40 there is just as much danger as at 70. Speed doesn't matter, what matters, is boats watching where they are going so they don't run over them at ANY speed.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  News Hawk on Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:12 am

obervantone wrote:"...Pointing out that while motorboats generally get the blame, kayakers and canoeists are a greater threat!  But What does she know? She's only a wildlife biologist!   Laughing
She is only one wildlife biologist, and I respect her opinion; however, I suspect she doesn't live on Lake Winnipesaukee.

 Arrow 


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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:50 am

WHL wrote:Please, the speed limit has nothing to do with the loon babies.  If a boat runs over a baby at 25 or 40 there is just as much danger as at 70.  Speed doesn't matter, what matters, is boats watching where they are going so they don't run over them at ANY speed.

I'm amazed when boating even at 25 MPH just how fast objects (debris etc.) seem to come up. Often there may be a little chop in the water which may obscure said object making it even harder to see. It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to realize that at 50 and 75 MPH this all happens 2x and 3x as fast. One could argue that we don't need a speed limit of 35 MPH on my street but that what matters is cars watching where they are going. That just doesn't make sense. We have had accidents on our street when cars were unable to slow down in time when going 35 MPH. I'm glad the speed limit on my street is 35 MPH not 70 MPH and for the same reason I'm glad it's 45 MPH on the lake, not 90 MPH, or even unlimited as it was 10 years ago.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  obervantone on Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:20 pm

News Hawk wrote:
I suspect she doesn't live on Lake Winnipesaukee.
That is classic!  Razz    She is a wildlife biologist for the NH Fish & Game department, but must live on Lake Winnipesaukee to know what she's talking about!   Brilliant!   clown 

If you look at loon deaths in NH in the 22 year span from 1989 to 2011 (provided by the Loon Preservation Committee) you will gather some interesting information.  First that struck me is that how the speedboat haters always seem to say that motorboats are the third leading cause of death, but never provide any numbers.   Looks like they rank #6.  Human harassment IE from canoes/kayaks etc is not specifically listed, undoubtedly included in the unknown which ranks #3.

The leading cause is lead fishing tackle 124 deaths, 49%
Monofilament line/other fishing tackle     22 deaths   9%
Unknown                                           31 deaths  12%
Unknown trauma and Other are tied for 4th   20 deaths each 8% each
Boat collisions                                    14 deaths    5%
Lead, unknown object                          10 deaths   4%
Loon trauma                                        9 deaths   3%
Gunshot                                              4 deaths   2%

Bottom line, boat collisions account for the deaths of 14 birds over the span of 22 years.


Last edited by obervantone on Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:40 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Baby loons

Post  WHL on Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:23 pm

Well, I live on the lake and I can tell you I have seen the loons harassed a lot more by kayaks and canoes than by motor boats.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  obervantone on Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:51 pm

Amy B wrote:
I'm glad it's 45 MPH on the lake, not 90 MPH, or even unlimited as it was 10 years ago.
There you go again...the speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee was never "unlimited" as those selling fear insist.  It was always regulated by the conditions so existing.  What does that mean?  It means your speed was regulated by factors that exist on the water at the time that you are underway...not by any arbitrary number.

When the Marine Patrol did their speed survey prior to the current law being passed, IIRC they found that the average speed on the lake was about 30 miles an hour and that only a couple of boats were recorded traveling at speeds that would now be considered illegal, but in no instance were any of the boat operators determined to be dangerous to themselves or others.  Why?  Because of conditions so existing.  The conditions in which they were boating were safe for what they were doing.  Damned common sense...we can't have that!

I would bet dollars to donuts that if a similar study were done today that you would find that the average speed on the lake has actually increased, not decreased.  Why?  Because there is now a definitive number determining what is a "safe" speed.  So if 45 is the speed limit then that must be okay...so we'll go faster.    

As my mother always said, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:40 pm

..."regulated by factors that exist on the water at the time" still is no hard and fast number but we can forgo the semantics. The so called "study" dictated the results. Have you ever slowed down when seeing a police car? And hardly an unbiased study given the leanings of an MP headed by Go Fast Be Loud fan Dave Barrett. This is why in part the state legislature dismissed as unreliable these so called "statistics" and passed the speed limit. And the house passed it by a nearly 80% landslide despite one of the most reactionary and conservative legislatures in NH history, many of the opposing 20% voted out of office for various reasons during the subsequent election.
  As far as your statistics for loon deaths (your's ending in 2011), let's not forget that the article YOU cited yesterday states that THE # 1 CAUSE OF LOON CHICK MORTALITY IS FROM POWERBOATS! And as noted, a boat going 75 MPH vs. 25 MPH has 1/3 the time to make allowances for a small obscure chick floating in the water.
The first post in this thread lauded the fact that this was a good year regarding loon chick survival. I commented that this may be in part a result of the speed limit. The article that you cited (the part of the article you "forgot" to mention) states that boat collisions are the number one cause of chick mortality. A boat going 75 MPH has less ability to compensate and avoid a chick than one going 25 MPH. That's just plain physics/mathematics 101. You cannot manipulate and tailor the laws of physics and mathematics to fit your Go Fast Be Loud views of lost personal freedom.

  I know you're irritated that you can't drive your boat tethered only by "factors that exist on the water at the time" but it is the law now. We see a difference all the time when boating. People comment to us all the time about the difference. A win win for Winnipesaukee, loons, family boaters, swimmers, campers, and those who enjoy a few quiet moments on their front porch.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  News Hawk on Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:40 pm

obervantone wrote:
Emily Preston, a wildlife biologist with the state’s Fish and Game Department, said motorboats get a lot of the blame for disturbing the birds, but paddle boats like kayaks and canoes, because they can get closer to the nests, actually can be a greater threat. She urges people to observe loons – and all wildlife – from afar.

“If they are looking at you, you are too close,” she said. 

http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/12601843-95/loon-chicks-hatching-on-lakes-boaters-cautioned
Item one:

I shot a video last week of a huge wake coming ashore next door. A youngster calls out to his Dad to see the giant breaking wake approaching. But what the youngster missed, was a mallard next to him which was pushed under by the wake! The duck popped up to be greeted with a second wave, which was not as severe.

Item two:

Today, it was reported that one floating (artificial man-made) Loon nest was removed due to the failure of the Loon pair to stay on the nest. Two other nests nearby were OK. Obviously, a kayak came too close.

Rolling Eyes


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Nothing's changed.

Post  obervantone on Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:35 pm

Well I guess that's it then....you two  clown  have solved all the problems.

Amy B...The results of the Loon commission don't show what you expected and the Marine Patrol study was bogus because it did not show what you expected...obviously they are wrong.

News Hawk...a wildlife biologist is full of s*&^ because you took a video last week

What was I thinking?  No

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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:41 am

obervantone wrote:

Amy B...The results of the Loon commission don't show what you expected and the Marine Patrol study was bogus because it did not show what you expected...obviously they are wrong.


But they did show what I expected..."THAT POWERBOATS ARE THE #1 CAUSE OF LOON CHICK MORTALITY". (Glad we have a speed limit.)
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Re: Baby loons

Post  News Hawk on Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:32 am

obervantone wrote:She is a wildlife biologist for the NH Fish & Game department, but must live on Lake Winnipesaukee to know what she's talking about!   Brilliant!   clown 

If you look at loon deaths in NH in the 22 year span from 1989 to 2011 (provided by the Loon Preservation Committee) you will gather some interesting information.  First that struck me is that how the speedboat haters always seem to say that motorboats are the third leading cause of death, but never provide any numbers.   Looks like they rank #6.  Human harassment IE from canoes/kayaks etc is not specifically listed, undoubtedly included in the unknown which ranks #3.

The leading cause is lead fishing tackle 124 deaths, 49%
Monofilament line/other fishing tackle     22 deaths   9%
Unknown                                           31 deaths  12%
Unknown trauma and Other are tied for 4th   20 deaths each 8% each
Boat collisions                                    14 deaths    5%
Lead, unknown object                          10 deaths   4%
Loon trauma                                        9 deaths   3%
Gunshot                                              4 deaths   2%

Bottom line, boat collisions account for the deaths of 14 birds over the span of 22 years.
Last season, a Loon was found dead in an area with many speed boaters. No conclusions were brought to the attention of the public. Perhaps "Unknown", "Other",  and "Unknown-Trauma" account for additional Loon deaths—to be added to speedboat column? 5% + 8% + 8% + 12% ???

 Shocked 


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Re: Baby loons

Post  obervantone on Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:20 am


News Hawk:
Perhaps "Unknown", "Other", and "Unknown-Trauma" account for additional Loon deaths—to be added to speedboat column? 5% + 8% + 8% + 12% ???

More likely this is correct the category:
paddle boats like kayaks and canoes, because they can get closer to the nests, actually can be a greater threat.

Of course we all know that a floating object such as a dead bird, does not drift away from where it died and float out into the lake but remains fixed in the exact location where it died.
Last season, a Loon was found dead in an area with many speed boaters. No conclusions were brought to the attention of the public.


Amy B
But they did show what I expected..."THAT POWERBOATS ARE THE #1 CAUSE OF LOON CHICK MORTALITY". (Glad we have a speed limit.
)
That's very odd. I looked at the information provided by the commission again and the numbers still have not changed. 14 deaths in 22 years attributed to powerboats, But don't worry, the world is flat and all those powerboats will eventually fall off in Alton.

Since you two seem to be so concerned about the human effect on the loon population I propose that you remove all sign of human intervention from your properties...take down the house, sheds docks etc. and then deed the land over to a conservation trust...for free...that way a little bit more of the lake will revert back to where you think it should be. Natural and wild with no human "contamination". What say boys?

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Re: Baby loons

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