Baby loons

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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:42 am

Yes, we already saw your 2011 data, but as your marine biologist article showed, POWERBOATS ARE THE # ! CAUSE OF LOON CHICK MORTALITY
obervantone wrote:
I would bet dollars to donuts that if a similar study were done today that you would find that the average speed on the lake has actually increased, not decreased.  Why?  Because there is now a definitive number determining what is a "safe" speed.  So if 45 is the speed limit then that must be okay...so we'll go faster.    

As my mother always said, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

Actually, one needs to look at mean, median, and mode. Now I'm not a trained statistician but here's an example. What if 80% of the boats measured are going 20-25 MPH. And 15% are going under 10 MPH. Another 5 % are going 60 MPH or more...though the liklihood of this in the vicinity of the MP seems remote Smile  In any case, the average speed of boats will seem quite reasonable. But it's that 5% of boats tearing around the lake, going legally at 70 MPH only 150' from the peaceful fisherman or swimmer, that spoils it for everyone.
Since were into quoting our mothers, mine always said that 95% of the problems are caused by 5% of the people. Our beloved speed limit seems to have gone a long way in terms of solving that 5% problem on our lake.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  obervantone on Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:03 pm

Amy B:
Yes, we already saw your 2011 data, but as your marine biologist article showed, POWERBOATS ARE THE # ! CAUSE OF LOON CHICK MORTALITY
No, you saw the Loon Preservation Commission's data taken over a 22 year period, 1989 to 2011, but like the speed limit data it does not conform to your preconceived ideas so you dismiss it. It does not change a thing it just lets anyone still reading this conversation know that you are unwilling to accept facts when they get in the way of your misconceptions.


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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:21 pm

Facts like "POWERBOATS ARE THE #1 CAUSE OF LOON CHICK MORTALITY"? Facts like a boat going 3x as fast has 1/3 less time to notice an object in the water?

Hey, I'm going to commission a study on my street. I'll pay a cop to point his radar at all cars coming up and down the street and then we'll be able to accurately determine the average speed of cars on my street Wink Laughing Laughing Laughing
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This is getting old

Post  obervantone on Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:38 pm

The facts....14 Loons were killed by powerboats in the 22 year period between 1989 and 2011....the stats do not differentiate between chicks and adults.
The facts...A trained wildlife biologist says powerboats get the bad reputation but it is canoeists and kayakers who cause greater damage to nesting loons.

The facts...The average boat speed on Lake Winnipesaukee was in the 30 mph range and as I recall less than 1% of the over 3800 boats targeted during the survey were going faster that what would be considered the legal limit today.  The Marine Patrol conducted the survey in various parts of the lake, some announced locations others unannounced and used both marked and unmarked boats in all day parts, 7 days a week.  Just as they would as they normally patrol the lake during any given day during boating season.

The results of both of these little pieces of fact do not coincide with your preconceived bias so they must be wrong.  Too bad for you.

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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:48 pm

obervantone wrote:
The facts...A trained wildlife biologist says powerboats get the bad reputation but it is canoeists and kayakers who cause greater damage to nesting loons.
 

You're being misleading and dishonest again by misquoting your marine biologist friend...She says they CAN cause greater damage, not that they do. There is NO data saying that they do. And for the most part canoeists and kayakers that I've run into have a great respect for the environment and nature. A meteorite making a direct hit on a loon nest could also cause a great deal of damage but that doesn't necessarily mean that it happens.
I remember a long time ago someone telling me that on the Johnny Carson show he had done a poll of the world's most hated musical instrument and it was the accordian. Many on the lake feel the same way about performance boats. Half of the people seem to dislike them. The other half despise them.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  obervantone on Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:04 pm

I beg to differ.

This is what the wildlife biologist said...very clear
motorboats get a lot of the blame for disturbing the birds, but paddle boats like kayaks and canoes, because they can get closer to the nests, actually can be a greater threat.
Because YOU happen to know responsible kayakers and canoeists does not mean the vast majority of them are responsible and will not get up close to see the pretty birds.

The rest of your comment just proves that you are not interested in the facts of surveys and research that exists since it does not back your misconceptions. I'm done trying to show you that the greatest boating evil to nesting loons is likely at the end of a paddle, not a hand on the throttle because you will not budge even in the face of research. You should be in Congress.

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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:33 pm

And you, denying the laws of physics, mathematics, and science, have a lot in common with another frightening crowd in Congress. Of course, even Capernicus encountered people who denied science. An earth that revolves around the sun was contrary to current theological views of the time, just like some of the facts shown here are contrary to the religious beliefs of the GFBL crowd.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  WHL on Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:09 pm

I just watched a lady in a kayak chase the loon across the bay. She was trying to take it's picture and as she got closer the loon and the baby swam more quickly away and she followed. I don't think she realized what she was doing but they felt threatened or they would not have swum away from her.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:40 pm

What bay were they in?
I'm always amazed when I'm out paddling how they seem to pop up out of the water after a dive within feet of my canoe. They always seem more curious than afraid.
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WTF SERIOUSLY????

Post  obervantone on Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:09 pm

ARE YOU F-ing KIDDING?  

AMY B:  I'm always amazed when I'm out paddling how they seem to pop up out of the water after a dive within feet of my canoe. They always seem more curious than afraid.

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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:44 am

No.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  WHL on Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:43 am

You are probably not chasing them around with a camera like an idiot.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:07 am

What bay was this in?
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Re: Baby loons

Post  News Hawk on Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:40 am

WHL wrote:I just watched a lady in a kayak chase the loon across the bay.  She was trying to take it's picture and as she got closer the loon and the baby swam more quickly away and she followed.  I don't think she realized what she was doing but they felt threatened or they would not have swum away from her.

She could also be attacked! Loons are very territorial, and known to kill Canada Geese with their bill...

OTOH, there are a couple of Loons at the end of Wolfeboro's Smith River that'll "hog the camera" for her. (By Dockside).

 study 


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Re: Baby loons

Post  obervantone on Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:52 am

ARE YOU F-ING KIDDING?????

GOING SO FAST IN YOUR CANOE THAT YOU DIDN'T SEE THEM IN TIME TO AVOID THEM?????  
MORE LIKELY YOU WANTED TO GO OVER AND SEE THE PRETTY BIRDS.

WHL, whether AMY B is chasing them with a camera or not, the stress on the bird is the same.  What a hypocritical narcissistic jack ass!  

Have a video that your buddy News Hawk took of your "playful" interaction with the loons that we can send to the Loon Preservation Commission and/or NH Fish & Game?...maybe they will present you with a big fat FINE!

AMY B
I'm always amazed when I'm out paddling how they seem to pop up out of the water after a dive within feet of my canoe. They always seem more curious than afraid.
ARE YOU F-ing KIDDING?
 
AMY B
No

No wonder you have been dismissing the comments of the wildlife biologist...who also was quoted as saying this!!!!
“If they are looking at you, you are too close,”
DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO.....SHOULD BE THE NEW SIGNATURE FOR THIS JACK ASS

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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:15 pm

No need to misconstrue my words to bolster your incredibly weak and contrived argument. As I said, it is not unusual during a quiet paddle to have a loon, known for covering hundreds of feet laterally under water, pop up within 20 feet of your canoe. No doubt this has happened to many other of our more peaceful paddlers.

      F-ing Kidding?   Jackass??  You sound like a rather angry person in general with a very short fuse. As I've noticed with some of your Go Fast Be Loud bretheren, when one can't win an argument with reason, logic, and articulate dialogue the next step is always to toss in the obscenities.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  obervantone on Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:37 pm

Right...you never saw them AS YOU PADDLED YOUR CANOE!
Interacting with a loon ...as you say they seem curious....translation, you are taming them and they are losing their fear of boats and people....yet you will be the first to scream bloody murder when your "pets" are killed by a boat because it lost its fear and got in the way and the boat operator didn't see it or could not avoid it.

Your damned right I'm pissed. You son a bitch - self righteous jackass! LEAVE THE LOONS ALONE!

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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:51 pm

Again, don't misconstrue my words to bolster a weak argument. A loon that can be hundreds of feet to my side or behind my canoe or kayak can easily pop up within feet of my canoe of kayak. This would not happen to you in one of your noisy boats so I understand how you can't relate. Even this summer we have had loons surface within ten feet of the dock (are you going to accuse me of trying to feed them now?) and last year a loon surfaced within 20 feet of where the kids were swimming off the dock and seemed even less afraid when you are in THEIR element.

As far as:

obervantone wrote:
Your damned right I'm pissed.  You son a bitch - self righteous jackass!   LEAVE THE LOONS ALONE!

  This language is often considered the hallmark of someone with a weak argument and a marginal intellect. We occasionally encounter this behavior at work where said inherently angry person has difficulties getting along with co-workers (and occasionally gets fired) and seems more likely to be involved in domestic difficulties.
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Re: Baby loons

Post  red_hill on Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:12 pm

Amy B wrote:Hmmmm....seems a bit odd that with your first post yesterday you mentioned the part about canoes etc. that CAN be a threat (though she didn't say they are) but you conveniently left out "Boat collisions are the greatest human-related cause of chick mortality and the third-highest cause of adult loon mortality, following lead poisoning or injury from fishing tackle".

Did you think that people wouldn't go back and read the article you cited? Your logic is humorous at best. Geez, perhaps you can get one of your buddies in Concord (like Hikel or Boutin) to partner with the Loon Preservation Society and overturn the speed limit Laughing  Maybe the marine biologist will join hands as well Laughing

Amy, the speed limit won't be overturned, however, it also is NOT enforced LOL

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Re: Baby loons

Post  red_hill on Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:16 pm

News Hawk wrote:
obervantone wrote:
Emily Preston, a wildlife biologist with the state’s Fish and Game Department, said motorboats get a lot of the blame for disturbing the birds, but paddle boats like kayaks and canoes, because they can get closer to the nests, actually can be a greater threat. She urges people to observe loons – and all wildlife – from afar.

“If they are looking at you, you are too close,” she said. 

http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/12601843-95/loon-chicks-hatching-on-lakes-boaters-cautioned
Item one:

I shot a video last week of a huge wake coming ashore next door. A youngster calls out to his Dad to see the giant breaking wake approaching. But what the youngster missed, was a mallard next to him which was pushed under by the wake! The duck popped up to be greeted with a second wave, which was not as severe.

Item two:

Today, it was reported that one floating (artificial man-made) Loon nest was removed due to the failure of the Loon pair to stay on the nest. Two other nests nearby were OK. Obviously, a kayak came too close.

Rolling Eyes


.

I guarantee a motorboat on plane and running 45 or more did not cause that "huge wake" Last time I checked, ducks were pretty good in the water.

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Re: Baby loons

Post  red_hill on Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:23 pm

Amy B wrote:What bay were they in?
I'm always amazed when I'm out paddling how they seem to pop up out of the water after a dive within feet of my canoe. They always seem more curious than afraid.
I had a adult pop up 10' in front of my 3 ton boat on Saturday. How would you tell the difference between a scared loon and a curious loon (bug eyes, a frown, smile)??

Sorry AmyB, Obervant one cleaned your clock.  Get over it and leave the loons alone.

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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:02 pm

Wow RH, 3 posts in a row.

I'm afraid unobservantone couldn't clean anyone's clock with his specious arguments, circular logic, and obscenity laced tirades. Fortunately those in Concord didn't fall for similarly themed arguments.
  As far as enforcement, many argued in Concord that the speed limit would be self enforcing. My neighbors and I have noticed a huge difference in the lake in terms of speed. I understand that some stops have been made by the MP as well but really what impressed me was hearing / reading elsewhere that some Go Fast Be Loud boaters communicating on the speed boating forums elsewhere are saying they will no longer come to Winni. And I've seen far fewer of these boats and those I've seen are no longer tearing around willy nilly whenever and wherever they want. Sure, maybe they will open up on the Broads for a few furtive seconds while keeping watch for the MP but things are very different. I think many of these boats and boaters have been replaced with more family oriented boats and boaters.

But thanks for your input.


Last edited by Amy B on Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:41 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Baby loons

Post  News Hawk on Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:10 pm

red_hill wrote:"...I had a adult pop up 10' in front of my 3 ton boat on Saturday..."

You can see 10' ahead of your 3 ton boat?

 Shocked 

How high did it pop?

Rolling Eyes

BTW, I've had adult Loons "pop-up" beside my kayak and between the hulls of my sailing catamaran, and mentioned both occurrences at FATP. (Where they are archived).

red_hill wrote:Amy, the speed limit won't be overturned, however, it also is NOT enforced LOL

Rob LaPointe had 19 citations on his Massachusetts auto-driver's record when he crushed to death two boaters on Long Lake with his oversized ocean-racer..

Perhaps enforcement will improve when the boating-operator's certificate seeks past illegal "performance" before issuing the certificate.

Maybe a vision test too—especially 10-feet ahead of one's boat.

 Question Question

red_hill wrote:
Sorry AmyB, Obervant one cleaned your clock.  
I don't know how one can be described as "being skilled in 'strawman arguments'", but Obvacant one seems to have perfected same.

No
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Since they don't recognize the problem

Post  obervantone on Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:03 pm

Let's offer a solution.

RH, maybe it is time we look at filing a bill with some teeth in it to punish people like Amy B. You know the type...they do no wrong, can violate rules and blame others for the problems that they cause.

Loons are officially listed as a threatened species in NH. Maybe we can take a page from the Endangered Species Act Penalty Schedule;

http://www.gc.noaa.gov/documents/gces/6-ESA/esa_1208.pdf

After all, the state could use the money.

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Re: Baby loons

Post  Amy B on Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:05 pm

obervantone wrote:  You son a bitch

This guy can't even articulate an obscenity. Kind of disturbing.
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Re: Baby loons

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