Re: Baby loons

Amy B Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:22 am

News Hawk wrote:being skilled in 'strawman arguments'

Interesting.....

A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of an opponent's argument. [3] To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.[4][5]

This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery, entertaining "battle" and the defeat of an "enemy" may be more valued than critical thinking or understanding both sides of the issue.

red_hill Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:17 am

News Hawk wrote:
red_hill wrote:"...I had a adult pop up 10' in front of my 3 ton boat on Saturday..."

You can see 10' ahead of your 3 ton boat?

How high did it pop?

BTW, I've had adult Loons "pop-up" beside my kayak and between the hulls of my sailing catamaran, and mentioned both occurrences at FATP. (Where they are archived).

I believe you and yes, I can see 10' in front of my boat. We had just left States Landing beach and were idling out to the point where I can put my drive all the way down. The large adult was swimming about 50' to our starboard side when it dove. To my surprise, it surfaced right in front of my boat, and dove again only to surface 75' to port. It "popped up" the usual amount. I guess they like the sound of a healthy V8 (with thru hub exhaust)! I would be glad to pick you up so you can see the sight lines (or perhaps you would like a sworn affidavit from everyone on my boat that day).

Shockingly, even though it was that close, I could not read the expression in its face Very Happy

(AmyB must be a loon whisperer)

AmyB, I am glad that you think that the boats are slower on the lake now. Not many boats ever went much over the current Sl outside of the broads pre-SL and you know it. Most boats on this lake can barely exceed it. I know I have asked you this question when you posted as someone different, but have you ever exceeded the SL on the road?

News Hawk Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:41 am

red_hill wrote:"...The large adult was swimming about 50' to our starboard side when it dove. To my surprise, it surfaced right in front of my boat, and dove again only to surface 75' to port. It "popped up" the usual amount..."

You're describing some other waterfowl—or you were in the company of several adult Loons. Loons stay under water for 3-4 minutes at a time, and travel about 200' before surfacing again. I know this, because I've sighted adult Loons diving, then run my video until he surfaces again. In the most recent case, a pontoon boat nearly ran the Loon over—a second case I've witnessed and wrote of to FATP including a pair of Loons surfacing in front of a Boston Whaler.

I'm writing of decades of watching Loon behavior. What chance does an adult Loon have of being killed or injured in a collision, when surfacing in front of a speeding multi-ton ocean racer on Lake Winnipesaukee?

.

.

red_hill Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:59 am

News Hawk wrote:
red_hill wrote:"...The large adult was swimming about 50' to our starboard side when it dove. To my surprise, it surfaced right in front of my boat, and dove again only to surface 75' to port. It "popped up" the usual amount..."
You're describing some other waterfowl—or you were in the company of several adult Loons. Loons stay under water for 3-4 minutes at a time, and travel about 200' before surfacing again. I know this, because I've sighted adult Loons diving, then run my video until he surfaces again. In the most recent case, a pontoon boat nearly ran the Loon over—a second case I've witnessed and wrote of to FATP including a pair of Loons surfacing in front of a Boston Whaler.

I'm writing of decades of watching Loon behavior. What chance does an adult Loon have of being killed or injured in a collision, when surfacing in front of a speeding multi-ton ocean racer on Lake Winnipesaukee?

.

.

I am very much aware of what loons look like. I grew up boating on Squam and have been boating on Winni for 12 years. I live in Moultonborough and boat out of the Lee's Mills end of the lake where loons are prevalent. I know you believe yourself to be an expert on everything, but certainly not on what I have seen (and I will bet you anything that my eyesight is better than yours Very Happy

yes, anything)

Loons can swim 200' underwater, but they do not always do so. There was one loon.

To answer your question, a loon does not have much chance of surviving a collision with any motorized vessel, including a 200 pound skiff with an 8 HP merc on it- simple math tells you that.

News Hawk Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:21 am

red_hill wrote:"...and I will bet you anything that my eyesight is better than yours yes, anything..."

I won't take that bet if you're equipped with vision that can see through the hull of your plastic boat.

red_hill wrote:"...Loons can swim 200' underwater, but they do not always do so. There was one loon..."

If you say so, but I haven't seen that behavior in one Loon...

red_hill wrote:"...a loon does not have much chance of surviving a collision with any motorized vessel, including a 200 pound skiff with an 8 HP merc on it- simple math tells you that..."

The math to compute the effect(s) of a multi-ton ocean-racer collision with a Loon is more complicated—and likely more difficult to master; for example, to compute the overall danger to wildlife, wouldn't you need to know what boat speeds are involved?

red_hill Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:50 am

News Hawk wrote:
red_hill wrote:"...and I will bet you anything that my eyesight is better than yours yes, anything..."

I won't take that bet if you're equipped with vision that can see through the hull of your plastic boat.

red_hill wrote:"...Loons can swim 200' underwater, but they do not always do so. There was one loon..."
If you say so, but I haven't seen that behavior in one Loon...

red_hill wrote:"...a loon does not have much chance of surviving a collision with any motorized vessel, including a 200 pound skiff with an 8 HP merc on it- simple math tells you that..."

The math to compute the effect(s) of a multi-ton ocean-racer collision with a Loon is more complicated—and likely more difficult to master; for example, to compute the overall danger to wildlife, wouldn't you need to know what boat speeds are involved?

I do not have xray vision, so let's bet. I have a fiberglass boat, but a plastic kayak. Pic taken from helm while standing with boat at anchor

Your fuzzy logic does not work- ten pound waterfowl have little chance against any vessel moving at planing speed... pretty simple. That is why they avoid collisions with boats.

Amy B Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:07 am

red_hill wrote:Not many boats ever went much over the current Sl outside of the broads pre-SL and you know it. Most boats on this lake can barely exceed it.

I'm not sure what the boat traffic is like where you live but in Meredith the difference is like night and day. As I said in an earlier post, 95% of problems seem to be created by 5% of the people. The speed limit helped a lot with that 5% problem.

obervantone Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:12 pm

Interesting study done in Michigan regarding the effect of the success or failure of nesting loons and canoeist.
Conducted at Isle Royale National Park, a protected National Park and designated Wilderness area in Lake Superior.

A significant negative relationship was found between the number of chicks produced by common loons and the number of canoeists and kayakers that visited Isle Royale.

the probability of nesting success decreased with increased numbers of paddlers traveling within specified distances (i.e., 20,55, and 150 m) of loon nests

Our analysis suggests that Isle Royale fledging rates could be increased to levels comparable to that of other loon populations by reducing annual numbers of canoe groups to a level not regularly observed on Isle Royale since the mid-1980's.

But that can't be true because there are no power boats and we know that only powerboats are the killers of loons!

Amy B Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:52 pm

Hmmm...funny you didn't cite the source of this article. Are you afraid we'll actually read it like the first one you cited? Are there power boats allowed in this area? I hope not because as your first article said: POWER BOATS ARE THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF LOON CHICK MORTALITY.

obervantone Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:01 pm

Amy B:

Hmmm...funny you didn't cite the source of this article. Are you afraid we'll actually read it like the first one you cited?

Nope. I did link to it then removed the link.

Do your own research for a change.

In the 4 pages of this conversation you have made some pretty outrageous statements and presented them as fact, but NOT ONCE have you linked to YOUR SOURCE.

Time for you to do your own research to back up YOUR claims.

red_hill Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:02 pm

http://www.commoncoast.org/CCRC/documents_i/kaplan_2003.pdf

Amy B wrote:Hmmm...funny you didn't cite the source of this article. Are you afraid we'll actually read it like the first one you cited? Are there power boats allowed in this area? I hope not because as your first article said: POWER BOATS ARE THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF LOON CHICK MORTALITY.

obervantone Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:04 pm

RH, let him does his own research and start backing up his claims.

So I'll repost this from page 4 since you don't feel the need to research anything I'll save you the trouble of paging back to read my response:

Amy B:

Hmmm...funny you didn't cite the source of this article. Are you afraid we'll actually read it like the first one you cited?

Nope. I did link to it then removed the link.

Do your own research for a change.

In the 4 pages of this conversation you have made some pretty outrageous statements and presented them as fact, but NOT ONCE have you linked to YOUR SOURCE.

Time for you to do your own research to back up YOUR claims.

As you will learn, if you read the research, an estimated 33% of the canoe groups permitted by the park go too close to nesting loons and the fledglings (chicks) do not survive. These are people who know that they are in a protected area for wildlife and presumably have the understanding that goes along with that. Leave the animals, birds, etc. alone.

Let's extrapolate that 33% figure to Lake Winnipesaukee, a body of water that is NOT a protected area but it is a recreational area. If 33% of presumably knowledgeable paddlers in a protected area are harassing nesting loons how large a number do you think that would be on Winnipesaukee where the people are NOT there to enjoy the wildlife, but are there to have a good time?

Maybe now you will begin to see why the wildlife biologist says while powerboats get the majority of blame it is paddlers that pose a greater threat.

But we both know that you are still going to deny it. Do some research and show me that I am wrong. Prove it to me.

Amy B Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:03 pm

obervantone wrote:RH, let him does his own research

OK, I'll does my own research (God, you are such an easy target...can't you do something to make it more of a challenge for me to make you look like an intellectual lost cause?). Here's one thing I found in your article that's hard to explain:

However,
in 2002, a year with overall low visitation (328 groups), increased numbers of paddlers
traveling within specified distances of loon nests had either no significant effect on loon
nesting success (p=0.40 for 20 m) or a marginally significant positive effect (p=0.15 for
55 m; p=0.07 for 155 m).

But I'll still stick with the premise that I started with in my first post. Loon chicks are increasing, boats are slowing down. I'll also reiterate the quote from the first article YOU posted, that POWER BOATS ARE THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF LOON CHICK MORTALITY.

**WHL** Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:20 pm

You sound like News Buzzard. He always wants somebody else to find a link for him!

obervantone Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:56 pm

Gee, why am I not surprised that you still have not produce any source to prove your claims?

News Hawk Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:53 pm

obervantone wrote:Interesting study done in Michigan regarding the effect of the success or failure of nesting loons and canoeist.
Conducted at Isle Royale National Park, a protected National Park and designated Wilderness area in Lake Superior.

A significant negative relationship was found between the number of chicks produced by common loons and the number of canoeists and kayakers that visited Isle Royale.

the probability of nesting success decreased with increased numbers of paddlers traveling within specified distances (i.e., 20,55, and 150 m) of loon nests

Our analysis suggests that Isle Royale fledging rates could be increased to levels comparable to that of other loon populations by reducing annual numbers of canoe groups to a level not regularly observed on Isle Royale since the mid-1980's.

But that can't be true because there are no power boats and we know that only powerboats are the killers of loons!

You're aware that Isle Royale is a huge National Park—and far wilder than our lakes region. Lake

Winnipesaukee's Loons have become increasingly tolerant of human activity—and that's just within my lifetime.

One hundred years ago, Loons were shot for sport in Massachusetts. Genuine Loon decoys are collectible!

How can biologists measure the effect of speedboats vs kayaks, when even kayaks are relatively rare—and paddle craft are both limited and controlled by National Park Management?

Question

With numerous lakes, bays and islands, Isle Royale National Park provides many miles of waterways for the experienced canoeist and kayaker. Lake Superior is well known for its cold temperatures, fog, and sudden squalls that can generate waves that could easily swamp a canoe. This along with scarce outer shore landing sites adds to the potential danger. Small, open vessels are discouraged from entering these cold treacherous Lake Superior waters and are encouraged to use the numerous miles of waterways that the inland lakes provide. Canoeists and kayakers should be familiar with weather patterns and consult the Marine Forecast at ranger stations and visitor centers before embarking. Be prepared to adjust your schedule to the weather. A portable marine radio is recommended.

.

obervantone Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:57 pm

News Hawk:

You're aware that Isle Royale is a huge National Park—and far wilder than our lakes region.

Yes I am, and that is the point. Paddlers that presumably have the knowledge to stay away from nesting loons are disrupting the lives of the birds in large numbers leading to the deaths of chicks.

33% of the paddlers.

If that is happening in a santcuary like that and involves so-called knowledgable people in canoes and kayaks just imagine how many hundreds are doing the same on Winnipesaukee where the focus is on recreation and not a sanctuary.

Amy B Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:07 pm

Amy B wrote:
This language is often considered the hallmark of someone with a weak argument and a marginal intellect. We occasionally encounter this behavior at work where said inherently angry person has difficulties getting along with co-workers (and occasionally gets fired) and seems more likely to be involved in domestic difficulties.

What parts here apply to you?

obervantone Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:09 pm

Still waiting for YOUR sources. 5 pages now.

News Hawk Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:09 pm

obervantone wrote:That issue was addressed by a named wildlife biologist in this article when she stated:
motorboats get a lot of the blame for disturbing the birds, but paddle boats like kayaks and canoes, because they can get closer to the nests, actually can be a greater threat.
Breaking it down for you, motorboats get the blame but kayakers and canoeists do much more damage.

It follows in Canada, too:

In 2001 a fellow by the name of James Martin released a report “Observations of Common Loon and Rednecked Grebe Populations, Nest Sites, Egg Counts, Hatch Success and Juvenile Survival Rates at Long Island Lake, North of Westlock, Alberta”. Within the “Summary” section of the report it was stated that “the ever-increasing size and frequency of waves from the wakes of recreational power boats is destroying most grebe nests and threatening many loon nests.

.

Amy B Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:15 pm

obervantone wrote:Gee, why am I not surprised that you still have not produce(sic) any source to prove your claims?

Now go to bed and don't bother us anymore until you've had some sleep and sober up.

obervantone Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:17 pm

Over 1100 miles north of the U-S border...how many recreational canoes and kayaks do you think there are?
I would speculate that the same thing applies...

motorboats get a lot of the blame for disturbing the birds, but paddle boats like kayaks and canoes, because they can get closer to the nests, actually can be a greater threat.

obervantone Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:17 pm

Amy B
...still waiting

News Hawk Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:35 pm

In the OP's source, the writer's first paragraph...!

Loon chicks are hatching on New Hampshire’s lakes, and biologists are asking that people heading to the water for the July Fourth weekend leave the endangered birds alone.

I don't view or set off fireworks on the July Fourth weekend.

obervantone Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:44 pm

News Hawk:

In the OP's source, the writer's first paragraph...!

Loon chicks are hatching on New Hampshire’s lakes, and biologists are asking that people heading to the water for the July Fourth weekend leave the endangered birds alone.

I don't view or set off fireworks on the July Fourth weekend.

And your point is?

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