Re: Source behind NSA leaks comes forward

Outerlimits Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:41 pm

News Buzzard wrote:I seem to be having a difficult time getting my point across that the NSA data mining did not start with Obama, and it is quite apparent here on this forum that the presumption of guilt is associated with his name. I would like to go back to the example of the airports...

You can stop right there because deflecting to the TSA muddies the waters.

Sure George W. Bush authorized the Patriot Act, but that data mining was completely different from PRISM. Under George W. Bush, they collected data on specific suspects without a warrant or probable cause. Yes it was broad and yes it was wrong. I did not agree with a lot George W. Bush did and the Patriot Act was near the top of the list. The Patriot act was in violation of the 4th amendment and should never have been allowed.

Prism was started under Obama. It collected data from everyone not just targeted suspects. It tapped into private company servers and in essence, backed up the internet nightly.

Every email you received, they have it.
Every email you sent, they have it.
Every email you deleted, they have it.

As they said in the report: they have the ability to see your ideas as they develop.

This all happened under Obama. He is guilty, that there is no doubt. To suggest that this is a simple progression of the Patriot is nonsense. That’s like stating drunk driving is the progression of a glass of wine at diner.

News Buzzard wrote:The government will make the same argument about data mining. Our protection as a society trumps our right to privacy, and that's how they'll justify it. If the Republicans ever do get back into power, ( ) they will never stop the data mining!! That's just a fact!

That is a good a reason as any for you to condemn Obama’s actions now.

News Buzzard Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:49 pm

Outerlimits wrote:Sure George W. Bush authorized the Patriot Act, but that data mining was completely different from PRISM. Under George W. Bush, they collected data on specific suspects without a warrant or probable cause. Yes it was broad and yes it was wrong. I did not agree with a lot George W. Bush did and the Patriot Act was near the top of the list. The Patriot act was in violation of the 4th amendment and should never have been allowed.

So how do you confer scandal on Obama only? Without the Patriot Act, there is no PRISM!

In the meantime, the administration is saying that congress has been briefed on this many times, including Mitch McConnell's office:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/prism-program-obama_n_3416973.html

**WHL** Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:59 pm

Great points, Outer and fsh.

That is what I often think. Where does the administration or Congress for that matter get the idea that we want all these things? The Patriot Act, Obamacare, etc. They say it is good for us. Well, thank you very much, all i want is to be left alone and not be under a nanny state. For that matter, it is not just the federal government, it is the town and state governments. They have so many laws, we can't even do anything anymore. I am sick and tired of the nanny state. I wish they would back off and make government smaller. Unfortunately, I don't think it will happen in my lifetime.

And I just have to ask, fsh---APPLE PIE????

fshnski Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:02 pm

News Buzzard wrote:
Outerlimits wrote:Sure George W. Bush authorized the Patriot Act, but that data mining was completely different from PRISM. Under George W. Bush, they collected data on specific suspects without a warrant or probable cause. Yes it was broad and yes it was wrong. I did not agree with a lot George W. Bush did and the Patriot Act was near the top of the list. The Patriot act was in violation of the 4th amendment and should never have been allowed.

So how do you confer scandal on Obama only? Without the Patriot Act, there is no PRISM!

"if her mother hadn't let her dress like a slut I never would have raped her".

That's about the same, a manipulation of the facts and shift of blame..

fshnski Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:04 pm

And I just have to ask, fsh---APPLE PIE????

As American as ...

**WHL** Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:10 pm

I thought maybe that was it, just wanted to make sure. It sure looks good! Makes me want a piece of it.

I didn't like the Patriot Act under Bush and I like it even less under Obama as he makes it stronger. I think we need to take a few risks and not lose our freedom. Besides, with the act as strong as it is now, we still have problems, Boston, for example.

fshnski Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:12 pm

They need to face the facts and target those most likely to cause problems.

**WHL** Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:32 pm

Yes, but that would be profiling. We COULDN'T do that!!!

fshnski Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:33 pm

And look what it's getting us.

News Pigeon Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:02 pm

WHL wrote:

I didn't like the Patriot Act under Bush and I like it even less under Obama as he makes it stronger. I think we need to take a few risks and not lose our freedom.

You do realize that the fundamental purpose of government, under the constitution, is to protect the country/people from all threats, foreign and domestic...what you're proposing is unconstitutional at the very core. Like it or not, we have pissed off most of the Arab world and they are out for our blood...we have proper security in place and I trust that the checks & balances through FISA are being observed. The info being collected isn't being viewed by human eyes unless it causes red flags. At that point, if it's of US citizenry, it no longer qualifies under the FISA law (end of that specific process)..... you're privacy is not being compromised.
I agree we must be ever vigilant that this procedure is always given much over-sight/review.

fshnski Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:09 pm

Who would have thought that our domestic threat would be from our own government.

fshnski Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:11 pm

News Pigeon wrote:

..... you're privacy is not being compromised.

They're tracking our e-mails, our phone calls and our internet activity.

News Hawk Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:16 am

News Buzzard wrote:So how do you confer scandal on Obama only? Without the Patriot Act, there is no PRISM!

But Obama Owns PRISM:

Republicans warned that the Democrats "only wanted Power" in 2008—the "Fruits of the Poison Tree" are still being uncovered.

"The Patriot act is the 2001 act that enables the interception and analysis of electronic data to be used as a tool to protect us from terrorism. It was sponsored by Republican Senator James Sensenbrenner. Then State Senator Obama was a vocal opponent of the act. Nonetheless the bill passed 98-1 in the Senate.

But then, notwithstanding his previous vocal opposition to the legislation, on May 26, 2011, President Barack Obama quietly signed a four year extension of the Patriot Act.

Obama now owns the Patriot Act.

It is possible that the Patriot Act has thwarted some unknown number of terrorist attacks. That number is unknown because the government has not published it. One would think that the government, especially the Obama administration, would have trumpeted its victories. Or at least I’ve been unable to find attempts at terrorism that were thwarted by the Patriot Act under the Obama administration.

We do know that in excess of 90% of the “delayed notifications” required under the act are for drug cases while less than 1% are terrorism related. We also know that even though there is ample evidence that the Boston Bombers were very active in using the electronic media, that they were able to commit their crime in spite of warnings from Russia and the provisions of the Patriot Act as enforced by Team Obama. We also know that the Fort Hood terrorist, Major Hassan was a prolific user of the internet. Nonetheless the Patriot Act failed to thwart him. We also know that the Times Square Bomber was an avid user of the web. We failed to thwart him. Only his own ineptitude saved us from massive loss of life. The list of failed attacks which were not foiled by the Patriot Act is longer.The Obama administration by reaching way beyond terrorism is casting far too wide a net.

We see that the Obama administration is perfectly comfortable using the power of the IRS to bludgeon its enemies and critics. This administration has seized far too much power and must be reined in.

It’s worth knowing that The Patriot Act authorized “sneak and peek” search warrants — where you, the suspect, don’t have to be notified of the search until after the fact. If you’re a patriot and thought those powers would be used to fight terrorism, well you’re wrong. We know now that the vast amount on “delayed notifications” have been for drugs. The number for terrorism is nearly infinitesimally low. I did a web search using the term “arrests as result patriot act.” The best I could find was an article in the ACLU web site. They state that as of this year there have been about 400 “convictions.” If you think that there were 400 convictions for terrorist activity you’re flat wrong. There were only 39 convictions associated with terrorism. The median sentence for these crimes was 11 months, which indicates the crime the government equated with terrorism was not serious. In fact in Florida a sentence of 11 months indicates a misdemeanor offense.

It certainly appears that gathering intell from suspected terrorists has not been very successful under that act as administered by the Obama administration.

The act gives the Obama admin the power to burrow into your medical records, your personal records, your personal communications. It authorizes the government to seize business communications and lists of individuals who belong to political organizations are also fair game for the government to seize.

This administration is unworthy of your trust on this matter.

News Hawk Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:51 am

fshnski wrote:Who would have thought that our domestic threat would be from our own government.

A terrorist attack will not destroy the US Constitution, but Government Tyranny will.

(ObamaNation assaults on the 1st Amendment, 2nd Amendment—and now—the 4th Amendment!)

**WHL** Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:17 am

Yes, NP, I do realize that. Too bad we have gone so far astray and feel that government needs to do EVERYTHING for us from the cradle to the grave. There is a point where we lose our freedoms in the name of protection and we have reached that point. As NH and fsh said, who would have thought a domestic threat would have been from our own government?

News Hawk Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:19 am

WHL wrote:As NH and fsh said, who would have thought a domestic threat would have been from our own government?

Especially from a leader who took an oath to protect us from foreign and domestic threats!

Mad

News Buzzard Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:48 am

News Pigeon wrote:
WHL wrote:

I didn't like the Patriot Act under Bush and I like it even less under Obama as he makes it stronger. I think we need to take a few risks and not lose our freedom.

You do realize that the fundamental purpose of government, under the constitution, is to protect the country/people from all threats, foreign and domestic...what you're proposing is unconstitutional at the very core. Like it or not, we have pissed off most of the Arab world and they are out for our blood...we have proper security in place and I trust that the checks & balances through FISA are being observed. The info being collected isn't being viewed by human eyes unless it causes red flags. At that point, if it's of US citizenry, it no longer qualifies under the FISA law (end of that specific process)..... you're privacy is not being compromised.
I agree we must be ever vigilant that this procedure is always given much over-sight/review.

Well said, News Pigeon!

fshnski Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:15 am

News Buzzard wrote:
News Pigeon wrote:
WHL wrote:

I didn't like the Patriot Act under Bush and I like it even less under Obama as he makes it stronger. I think we need to take a few risks and not lose our freedom.

You do realize that the fundamental purpose of government, under the constitution, is to protect the country/people from all threats, foreign and domestic...what you're proposing is unconstitutional at the very core. Like it or not, we have pissed off most of the Arab world and they are out for our blood...we have proper security in place and I trust that the checks & balances through FISA are being observed. The info being collected isn't being viewed by human eyes unless it causes red flags. At that point, if it's of US citizenry, it no longer qualifies under the FISA law (end of that specific process)..... you're privacy is not being compromised.
I agree we must be ever vigilant that this procedure is always given much over-sight/review.

Well said, News Pigeon!

It's hard to believe that you are Americans.

News Hawk Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:24 am

fshnski wrote:"...It's hard to believe that you are an American..."

...Americans...

**WHL** Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:47 pm

fshnski wrote:
News Buzzard wrote:
News Pigeon wrote:
WHL wrote:

I didn't like the Patriot Act under Bush and I like it even less under Obama as he makes it stronger. I think we need to take a few risks and not lose our freedom.

You do realize that the fundamental purpose of government, under the constitution, is to protect the country/people from all threats, foreign and domestic...what you're proposing is unconstitutional at the very core. Like it or not, we have pissed off most of the Arab world and they are out for our blood...we have proper security in place and I trust that the checks & balances through FISA are being observed. The info being collected isn't being viewed by human eyes unless it causes red flags. At that point, if it's of US citizenry, it no longer qualifies under the FISA law (end of that specific process)..... you're privacy is not being compromised.
I agree we must be ever vigilant that this procedure is always given much over-sight/review.

Well said, News Pigeon!

It's hard to believe that you are Americans.

That was a good one, fsh. At least they (along with Obama and friends) certainly don't believe in the principles of this country.

News Buzzard Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:02 pm

fshnski wrote:It's hard to believe that you are Americans.

That's not nice!

News Pigeon and I are very proud Americans!

fshnski Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:02 pm

You sure don't act it.

News Buzzard Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:06 pm

fshnski wrote:You sure don't act it.

You're entitled to your opinion. It's still a free country! afro

fshnski Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:07 pm

For how long?

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